Recommendation: Make it happen

#1
Does anyone go to novelupdates.com?
Just go and click on any of the novels. See this wonderful recommendation list?
I would love to have it on RRL! Because I know that if I enjoy a novel, I also enjoy its recommended novels.

I want novelupdates.com recommendation lists on RRL.

Am I the only one who want to make it happen? Please, make it happen. May I ask the go admins to fw:ask task their slav developers to work on that?
Now seriously, I'm just asking for opinions and if someone can tell me what the admins/devs think.


Edit 1: For those wondering, it looks like this:

(random novel on novelupdates)
Library of Heaven’s Path https://www.novelupdates.com/series/libr...vens-path/
Recommendations
History’s Number 1 Founder (15)
History’s Strongest Senior Brother (7)
Cultivation Chat Group (5)
I’m Really a Superstar (5)
Running Away From The Hero! (4)
Absolute Choice (4)

Yes, NovelUpdates gives you a splendid reading list for each and every of the novels you like.

Meanwhile, us on RRL, we can only fetch recommendation like this:
https://forum.royalroadl.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5850
[/url]
[url=https://forum.royalroadl.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5850]
Science Fantasy Story List
Fiction List

Survival Fantasy novel, be it another world or not 
Stories about building a kingdom/city or starting a business in a fantasy world.

Edit 2:
Now it seems technically doable.

But is Novelupdates recommendation system going to work on RRL?

There are many LitRPG/Fantasy novels on RRL, so many that there may be not much variety in recommendation. Top Fictions may flood the recommendations instead of the actual relevant novels. Obviously if the recommendations list becomes a copy of the Top Fiction lis, then there's no point.
Is this what's going to happen? It's hard to refute if you're not very familiar with the working of NU and RRL recommendation.

Can it works vanilla? Can it works with modifications? What modifications? Will it not work at all? What will prevent it from working?

If you are very familiar with NU or/and RRL recommendation, please give your opinion.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#3
11/22/2017 4:54:29 AM Wrote: [ -> ]Uh, don't we already have a recommendation thread or something?


Most certainly. But I searched 'recommendation' and only got this:
http://forum.royalroadl.com/showthread.php?tid=16985&highlight=recommendation


Not exactly what I have in mind... If I can't find it, then others probably can't. So I created (another?) one :/

Edit: If instead of 'thread about better recommendation' you mean the current place where ppl ask for recommendation. Then yes, we have one but I don't like it. http://forum.royalroadl.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5850 <--Meh.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#5
11/22/2017 5:06:15 AM Wrote: [ -> ]I was talking about this thread: https://forum.royalroadl.com/showthread.php?tid=81394

Or https://forum.royalroadl.com/showthread.php?tid=48100 (though this is evidently out of date).

Or just this in general. https://forum.royalroadl.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=5850


First link is nice I guess? But still nowhere as good as NU. I mean here, random novel on NU:


Library of Heaven’s Path https://www.novelupdates.com/series/library-of-heavens-path/
Recommendations
History’s Number 1 Founder (15)
History’s Strongest Senior Brother (7)
Cultivation Chat Group (5)
I’m Really a Superstar (5)
Running Away From The Hero! (4)
Absolute Choice (4)

For each novel you like, this practically gives you your reading list.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#8
Um, while that might be a nice idea, the logistics will be a nightmare. Who gets to decide which novel should be added to the recommended list of a specific novel? The readers? The author himself (who might not have read much)? What about the lesser-known stories that nobody reads? Even if they are similar, they will get left out and it becomes this vicious cycle of the popular novels recommending other popular stories.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#9
11/22/2017 7:19:35 AM Wrote: [ -> ]Um, while that might be a nice idea, the logistics will be a nightmare. Who gets to decide which novel should be added to the recommended list of a specific novel? The readers? The author himself (who might not have read much)? What about the lesser-known stories that nobody reads? Even if they are similar, they will get left out and it becomes this vicious cycle of the popular novels recommending other popular stories.


Logistics? I have no idea at all. But why are you concerned about that? NovelUpdates must have a way. I'm not their admin, i'm not their mod, I'm not even a registred user. I just go there I see that each and every novel I click on gives recommendations. I can even get obscure doubtful recommendations from slightly obscure doubtful novels (NovelUpdates doesn't discriminate based on the contents of the novels).

Don't just speak of logistic nightmare. Sure, this will be nightmarish if you're going to learn server permissions, MySQL, and Javascipt or whatever before telling if this can be done.
BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE. This is now working. This can therefore be done on RRL.

My point? It just need the admins to agree and the devs will do it. Users, be it you or me, just have to say if they want it.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#10
11/22/2017 7:37:15 AMZhangY Wrote: [ -> ]
11/22/2017 7:19:35 AM Wrote: [ -> ]Um, while that might be a nice idea, the logistics will be a nightmare. Who gets to decide which novel should be added to the recommended list of a specific novel? The readers? The author himself (who might not have read much)? What about the lesser-known stories that nobody reads? Even if they are similar, they will get left out and it becomes this vicious cycle of the popular novels recommending other popular stories.


Logistics? I have no idea at all. But why are you concerned about that? NovelUpdates must have a way. I'm not their admin, i'm not their mod, I'm not even a registred user. I just go there I see that each and every novel I click on gives recommendations. I can even get obscure doubtful recommendations from slightly obscure doubtful novels (NovelUpdates doesn't discriminate based on the contents of the novels).

Don't just speak of logistic nightmare. Sure, this will be nightmarish if you're going to learn server permissions, MySQL, and Javascipt or whatever before telling if this can be done.
BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE. This is now working. This can therefore be done on RRL.

My point? It just need the admins to agree and the devs will do it. Users, be it you or me, just have to say if they want it.


That's like saying "We want Wattpad's inline commenting" without realising they have received huge amounts of money to hire developers to do that.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#11
11/22/2017 7:54:51 AMNecamijat Wrote: [ -> ]
11/22/2017 7:37:15 AMZhangY Wrote: [ -> ]
11/22/2017 7:19:35 AM Wrote: [ -> ]Um, while that might be a nice idea, the logistics will be a nightmare. Who gets to decide which novel should be added to the recommended list of a specific novel? The readers? The author himself (who might not have read much)? What about the lesser-known stories that nobody reads? Even if they are similar, they will get left out and it becomes this vicious cycle of the popular novels recommending other popular stories.


Logistics? I have no idea at all. But why are you concerned about that? NovelUpdates must have a way. I'm not their admin, i'm not their mod, I'm not even a registred user. I just go there I see that each and every novel I click on gives recommendations. I can even get obscure doubtful recommendations from slightly obscure doubtful novels (NovelUpdates doesn't discriminate based on the contents of the novels).

Don't just speak of logistic nightmare. Sure, this will be nightmarish if you're going to learn server permissions, MySQL, and Javascipt or whatever before telling if this can be done.
BUT IT HAS BEEN DONE. This is now working. This can therefore be done on RRL.

My point? It just need the admins to agree and the devs will do it. Users, be it you or me, just have to say if they want it.


That's like saying "We want Wattpad's inline commenting" without realising they have received huge amounts of money to hire developers to do that.


No, I'm aware of the money issue.
It's just that I'm surprised to be told how this cannot work when it's actually working on NovelUpdates.
Tanaka asked the technical 'How', I just said it was irrelevant because we are not starting from scratch (unlike NU probably did).
Then, if you're telling me that you have considered the cost of that feature then rejected it due to a lack of allocated funds. I can totally understand.
There's a budget, there's people making decisions, and there's people doing the actual work. Don't tell me the latter can't do it because I'm seeing it on NovelUpdates. As for the former, well, I don't know.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#13
11/22/2017 8:23:11 AM Wrote: [ -> ]Logistics include budgets. I was just giving an example.


You're exactly right.

And that's not something I have a hand on. I can just say that I want that feature.
How much I or others want it will affect the budget RRL is willing to use.

For once I don't have to explain the How/Why/etc. of the feature because it already exists elsewhere.
So I'm focusing on what I can do... which is just asking if others want it and maybe reaching someone that does have a hand on budget :/

Sigh... so much for the original 'let's do it guys'. Speaking about budget just insta-kill all possible ideas...

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#14
The reason this isn't implemented isn't due to the budget; while we are constrained with that, 2 of the 3 admins (me and curvinho) are software developers.

The reason this isn't implemented is because - sadly - unlike Novel Updates, we have a serious case of being boxed into a niche (or 3). I can basically tell you now that if we added it, you'd find Arcane Emperor recommended as #1 on almost every story on the site... Not very helpful, is it?

When coming up with an idea like this, the hardest part for us is usually deciding how to make it work with our limitations, be it money, the lack of 20 developers on call, or the community itself. But I'm always open for suggestions, especially if they help me figure out the hard part of "how do I make this work".

The system works for Novel Updates because they are much more varied in the stories they have.

TL;DR:
Is it hard to implement? Not at all. Would it work for us? Probably not, but I'm listening for ideas on how to make it work.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#15
11/22/2017 9:39:27 AMkanadaj Wrote: [ -> ]The reason this isn't implemented isn't due to the budget; while we are constrained with that, 2 of the 3 admins (me and curvinho) are software developers.

The reason this isn't implemented is because - sadly - unlike Novel Updates, we have a serious case of being boxed into a niche (or 3). I can basically tell you now that if we added it, you'd find Arcane Emperor recommended as #1 on almost every story on the site... Not very helpful, is it?

When coming up with an idea like this, the hardest part for us is usually deciding how to make it work with our limitations, be it money, the lack of 20 developers on call, or the community itself. But I'm always open for suggestions, especially if they help me figure out the hard part of "how do I make this work".

The system works for Novel Updates because they are much more varied in the stories they have.

TL;DR:
Is it hard to implement? Not at all. Would it work for us? Probably not, but I'm listening for ideas on how to make it work.


Hmm... I'm going to need some time to think about this. It will surely help to know people familiar to RRL recommendations and some with NU recommendations to see exactly what may cause Arcane Emperor to pop everywhere and what may prevent it.

Also, that may sound incredibly stupid -- and not related to recommendations at all -- but have you thought about just encouraging authors to write something different from RRL Fantasy (speaking of that niche)? I mean anything can do, tutorial about detective stories, contest to change RRL background into a limited modern setting, ... anything may spark ideas in the community. Maybe just saying that posting a non-fantasy fiction on RRL is appropriate may do (I asked it to myself at some point because if I write it will certainly not be fantasy or sci-fi).

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#17
11/22/2017 10:11:45 AMZhangY Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm... I'm going to need some time to think about this. It will surely help to know people familiar to RRL recommendations and some with NU recommendations to see exactly what may cause Arcane Emperor to pop everywhere and what may prevent it.


It's logical, if you think about it; most works share some elements of Arcane Emperor on the site. User recommendations usually boil down to "what story do I know that is similar to this in some way, and I enjoyed it". So they will recommend Arcane Emperor, because it satisfies that condition. Now comes the problem: given how popular Arcane Emperor is, how many recommendations will it get compared to other stories on the site?

11/22/2017 10:11:45 AMZhangY Wrote: [ -> ]Also, that may sound incredibly stupid -- and not related to recommendations at all -- but have you thought about just encouraging authors to write something different from RRL Fantasy (speaking of that niche)? I mean anything can do, tutorial about detective stories, contest to change RRL background into a limited modern setting, ... anything may spark ideas in the community. Maybe just saying that posting a non-fantasy fiction on RRL is appropriate may do (I asked it to myself at some point because if I write it will certainly not be fantasy or sci-fi).


Yes we did, but that's the kind of thing that is really hard to address. We actually have very limited control over the community's preferences and niches. We can accommodate them, but directing them is virtually impossible. On the other hand, there is a constant change of niches even without us doing anything - just look at how cultivation stories started popping up in the recent months.

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#18
11/22/2017 10:29:36 AMNecamijat Wrote: [ -> ]You're approaching it from only one point.
One side is RRL not having enough authors that write that niche. The bigger one is that the reader base doesn't accommodate those niches, that is to say, something that isn't common on RRL is most likely not going to be popular purely because most of the readers simply aren't interested in those genres.


True, I can't get modern fiction fans into RRL registered users. That would take advertising. Something I have no clue about.
But one bridge I can see is fan-fictions. RRL users love fan-fictions so why not non-fantasy fan-fictions?

Then, there's what people like and what people want. On RRL I want and search for LitRPG and fan-fictions. Does that mean I don't like other styles? Not so sure. I'll may take a better than average story to change what I want and search on RRL but that's not impossible. (I mean who didn't get into chinese novel while searching for japanese novels?)

Now I need those stories. (Previous post)

I guess this can work. It's not like you lose anything by promoting non-fantasy stories and fan-fictions. It will take time and more than a few coincidences but you'll end up with something. Well, I only see fanfiction to move the user base and create opportunities but I bet there's more.

11/22/2017 10:40:56 AMkanadaj Wrote: [ -> ]It's logical, if you think about it; most works share some elements of Arcane Emperor on the site. User recommendations usually boil down to "what story do I know that is similar to this in some way, and I enjoyed it". So they will recommend Arcane Emperor, because it satisfies that condition. Now comes the problem: given how popular Arcane Emperor is, how many recommendations will it get compared to other stories on the site?


Yeah, it is sadly logical. That's why I would like to roleplay NU recommendation with commentary and novels from a RLL recommendation forum lurker. I think I would get something from it. I can take all the roles myself but 'time'...

11/22/2017 10:40:56 AMkanadaj Wrote: [ -> ]Yes we did, but that's the kind of thing that is really hard to address. We actually have very limited control over the community's preferences and niches. We can accommodate them, but directing them is virtually impossible. On the other hand, there is a constant change of niches even without us doing anything - just look at how cultivation stories started popping up in the recent months.


I think all it takes is a good novel. So no good novel can pop-up on RRL? Not so sure... It just happen that most good novels are fantasy... Yeah; it's hard to fight against translated novel from website from all around the world for the lead. But it's not impossible and it'll happen. After all, translation brings all kinds of cancer (copyright claims, bad translation, foreign nationalism...).

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#19
You could have recommendations like on myanimelist, where you have to write a review-ish post on why you recommend the novel

Or you could have the author pick out some recommendations, such as having 3 recommendations of what the author thinks are good novels like their own, they could even get their readers to help

no idea id these are any better or even useful, just thought these might help a bit with getting the ideas rolling, hopefully

RE: Recommendation: Make it happen

#20
11/28/2017 2:49:56 PMPricey Wrote: [ -> ]You could have recommendations like on myanimelist, where you have to write a review-ish post on why you recommend the novel


Sorry to be a downer about this, but in a story with 2000 average views/readers or so (using my fic as a metric), you get 459 follows, 74 ratings, 7 simple reviews and 2 complex reviews. You would just end up with one fiction getting an exponentially larger number of reviews as every fiction gets linked to it, exacerbating the problem.
To get percentage reader engagement on a free story. 20-25% follow, 3-4% rate, an act that can be completed by simply clicking a button. 0.3-0.4% leave a simple review, a few words or so, 0.1-0.2% leave a complex review, writing anything from one to multiple paragraphs. 
In essence, for every increase in complexity and button click you get an engagement drop off of 20% each time. 4 recursions of that looks like this. 100% -> 20% -> 4% -> 0.8% -> 0.16% (in actuality it drops on second last, because of massively increased effort, ~10% engage on writing ones)
Some stories have millions of views, that would lead to a massive accumulation of reviews on a few stories, drowning out everything else. Many stories would comparatively only have a single review.
And you should keep in mind that I post frequent large chapters, am lucky to have awesome followers so far and actively find ways to encourage reader engagement while minimizing effort required to engage - making my figures disproportionately large for a 1 month old story.
In some it might look closer to: 100% -> 10% -> 1% -> 0.1% -> 0.01%
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